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B12 Expansion

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Comments

  • DSnyder15DSnyder15 Wealthy Alum

    My interest in a thread comes to a screeching halt when complaints about Miami's fees start.

    I live in a college town and wish I could spend that little for full access to great seats at games and use of athletic equipment/fields.

    Uhhh....you are adding to the discussion.
    ChiefPanic
  • BluesmanBluesman Wealthy Alum
    I agree, no need to bring up Miami's fees in this thread. They have been discussed ad nauseum. Sort of like the OL!! ;)
  • DevilGradDevilGrad Wealthy Alum
    Fred said:


    JiveHawk said:

    There was an editorial in the Cincinnati Enquirer on Sunday in support of UC to the Big 12. There was also this piece from a couple of UC faculty/staff:


    I'd love to have an athletics department that 'only' costs students $500 year/$2,000 for their time in college. If the number referenced in the article is the student fee at UC for athletics, Miami's is almost double that. Unconscionable.
    I like how every post you make is against ICA with no solutions. Everything we're doing is donor funded. Our fees aren't the worst the in conference and at least we typically have a top team and national championship contender to root for, unlike every other MAC school, except Akron. It's not like the fees are growing wildly like tuition costs (which are actually frozen this year).

    Have you looked up what the average university pays per enrollee on advertising? What about studies on athletics role on application numbers? There are a lot of universities that won't be around in 20 years. Miami needs to build strong support for each pillar if it wants to be standing.

    Don't you think there's a reason EMU and other teams that haven't been relevant in over 20 years still have athletics? Even FCS schools keep it around.
    I know people hate when I post and especially about this topic, but this argument is complete bullshit.  Don't trust me.  Go read Robert Frank's 2004 report for the Knight Commission for yourself.  Miami set a record for number of freshman applicants the year we went oh-fer under Treadwell, and applications keep going up.  That has nothing to do with sports and everything to do with (1) joining the Common Application a few years back, (2) vastly ramping up our out-of-state recruiting efforts, and (3) international applicants.

    You are entitled to your own opinions, and I know you just well enough to know that it's a waste of my time to try to change them.  However, you are not entitled to your own facts.  
    DSnyder15elpalitoMiamiMAC
  • BluesmanBluesman Wealthy Alum
    edited August 2016

    May I suggest to both of you that every good argument has arguable facts for both sides?


    I might also suggest for additional reading on the topics you 2 are discussing an article published in 2009 by Devin G. Pope of the University of Pennsylvania and Jaren Pope of Virginia Tech entitled "The impact of college sports success on the quantity and quality of student applications", which has conclusions that could be used to argue both of your points. It was published in the Southern Economic Journal if you are interested.

  • MUHawk84MUHawk84 Wealthy Alum
    Bluesman said:

    May I suggest to both of you that every good argument has arguable facts for both sides?


    I might also suggest for additional reading on the topics you 2 are discussing an article published in 2009 by Devin G. Pope of the University of Pennsylvania and Jaren Pope of Virginia Tech entitled "The impact of college sports success on the quantity and quality of student applications", which has conclusions that could be used to argue both of your points. It was published in the Southern Economic Journal if you are interested.

    Agreed. There are so many factors to also consider. I mean, there are a ton of additional Asians on campus in the last few years. Did more Asians choose Miami, or did Miami purposely target that particular demographic. The same can be said for overall enrollment rates. Another point to consider is the global application or whatever they call it. I'd be willing to bet that the ease to just check Miami or any other school as a place to send an application has had an impact. I'd also like to add that it's 15:01 and the Big 12 agrees, UC still sucks.
  • JiveHawkJiveHawk Wealthy Alum
    MUHawk84 said:

    Bluesman said:

    May I suggest to both of you that every good argument has arguable facts for both sides?


    I might also suggest for additional reading on the topics you 2 are discussing an article published in 2009 by Devin G. Pope of the University of Pennsylvania and Jaren Pope of Virginia Tech entitled "The impact of college sports success on the quantity and quality of student applications", which has conclusions that could be used to argue both of your points. It was published in the Southern Economic Journal if you are interested.

    Agreed. There are so many factors to also consider. I mean, there are a ton of additional Asians on campus in the last few years. Did more Asians choose Miami, or did Miami purposely target that particular demographic. The same can be said for overall enrollment rates. Another point to consider is the global application or whatever they call it. I'd be willing to bet that the ease to just check Miami or any other school as a place to send an application has had an impact. I'd also like to add that it's 15:01 and the Big 12 agrees, UC still sucks.
    Miami has targeted international students for a couple reasons: they pay a higher tuition in cash and they boost minority numbers. The common app has been a thing with Miami for a bit now, so it really doesn't explain the continuous increase. Especially because other Ohio schools are having decreases in applications. It's $50 just to apply to Miami through the common app. Those fees add up enough that people only apply to a targeted list. My friends who used common app did it by tiers they defined by interest and prestige with fallbacks. 2 tier 1, a tier 2, and a tier 3 usually.

    But Blues brought up the exact paper I was talking about though. And you have to think about bowl games. You're practically the only sporting event on tv and you get free commercial slots. Those ads are being played at every football fan's house and every restaurant nationwide. Get a nice video of Miami's campus, throw out some stats with the public ivy branding. If I'm a high school student, that's enough to at least get me interested.
  • 2xHawk2xHawk Off-Campus Slummer

    The free TV advertising argument is vastly overvalued and a tired, poor defense of athletic spending.  Who's really watching these bowl games?  Almost no one.  The low level bowl games draw between 1 and 2 million viewers.  Fans of the two teams and gamblers, that's who is watching.  For what we spend on football annually you could buy advertising on half the Sunday Night Football games and hit 23 million people each night.

    DSnyder15MiamiMAC
  • JiveHawkJiveHawk Wealthy Alum
    2xHawk said:

    The free TV advertising argument is vastly overvalued and a tired, poor defense of athletic spending.  Who's really watching these bowl games?  Almost no one.  The low level bowl games draw between 1 and 2 million viewers.  Fans of the two teams and gamblers, that's who is watching.  For what we spend on football annually you could buy advertising on half the Sunday Night Football games and hit 23 million people each night.

    "Hey people who watch sports, come to a school that doesn't have sports."
  • elpalitoelpalito Wealthy Alum
    JiveHawk said:

    2xHawk said:

    The free TV advertising argument is vastly overvalued and a tired, poor defense of athletic spending.  Who's really watching these bowl games?  Almost no one.  The low level bowl games draw between 1 and 2 million viewers.  Fans of the two teams and gamblers, that's who is watching.  For what we spend on football annually you could buy advertising on half the Sunday Night Football games and hit 23 million people each night.

    "Hey people who watch sports, come to a school that doesn't have sports."
    Miami could still have sports. It's only football funding being used for advertising during NFL games. Run ads promoting basketball in the latter part of the NFL season.
  • JiveHawkJiveHawk Wealthy Alum
    edited August 2016
    elpalito said:

    JiveHawk said:

    2xHawk said:

    The free TV advertising argument is vastly overvalued and a tired, poor defense of athletic spending.  Who's really watching these bowl games?  Almost no one.  The low level bowl games draw between 1 and 2 million viewers.  Fans of the two teams and gamblers, that's who is watching.  For what we spend on football annually you could buy advertising on half the Sunday Night Football games and hit 23 million people each night.

    "Hey people who watch sports, come to a school that doesn't have sports."
    Miami could still have sports. It's only football funding being used for advertising during NFL games. Run ads promoting basketball in the latter part of the NFL season.
    So which women's sport gets dropped. The whole idea is silly.

    And again, irrelevance takes over another thread.
  • 2xHawk2xHawk Off-Campus Slummer
    JiveHawk said:

    2xHawk said:

    The free TV advertising argument is vastly overvalued and a tired, poor defense of athletic spending.  Who's really watching these bowl games?  Almost no one.  The low level bowl games draw between 1 and 2 million viewers.  Fans of the two teams and gamblers, that's who is watching.  For what we spend on football annually you could buy advertising on half the Sunday Night Football games and hit 23 million people each night.

    "Hey people who watch sports, come to a school that doesn't have sports."



    The Sunday Night Football example is simply to show the inefficiency of this argument, feel free to insert whatever other highly rated television program connects the dots for you.  However, current students have very clearly shown that they are people who watch sports yet Miami having varsity sports is of little concern to them. 

    Dropping football entirely wouldn't even have to be on the table.  Just cut the spending back to a reasonable amount and spend the rest on advertising or anything else that is actually effective to the university mission.  Then supporters of the athletics could focus their argument on the positive things that athletics actually provides without needing to throw in financial fallacies to justify it's existence.

    The following passages from the Enquirer link above sum athletics up perfectly:

    The argument now is that joining the Big 12 will bring in enough money to close the expanding shortfall in revenue in UC athletics. But joining the Big 12 will certainly mean even more spending on coaches, buildings, players, travel and equipment. In any case, the money already invested in UC's sports programs will never be recovered. Meanwhile, spending on athletics is not slowing down.

    Sports are valuable additions to college and community life. But big-business sports have shown themselves to be losing bets for most universities, and the burden of these bad choices falls most heavily on our students. If the Big 12 invitation comes to UC, there is little likelihood that any resulting revenue will be invested in the academic mission of the university in a meaningful way. In the end, we can only hope for a break-even proposition. Almost any other spending would be a better bet: better pay for staff and faculty, which is woefully behind peer institutions; more direct investment in student support and scholarships; reducing the exploitation of adjuncts; or even a reduction in tuition to make college more affordable and accessible.

    Those kinds of investments would put our students ahead of the game. But like a loser at the tables, the university keeps doubling down, swearing that it will quit when it gets back to even.


  • RedseaRedsea Wealthy Alum
    A financial argument to drop football and save the university money can be made.   (I hate that idea- but the argument could be made)

    I don't think there is an argument to spend "a reasonable amount" on football works.  If you drop down to FCS, then you aren't in the MAC- you lose out on the revenue benefits of the ESPN contracts and Playoff payout- but maintain 75% of the expenses (63 scholarships vs 85 and you still have coaches,etc).  Plus travel would go way up- the closest FCS league is the Gateway.  Finally, the money you get for the road game at a power conference goes way down.

    Also, I don't think there is any proof that dropping football helps your other sports- but it is a hard case because there aren't a lot of data points of schools that had football and dropped it in the last 25 years.   


  • Back to this Big 12 thread as intended, the University of Dayton is now in discussions to be a Big 12 member. There's a group of alums who have the millions it'll take to build a 55,000 person football stadium on the current site of the Montgomery County Fairgrounds, and then kick in the cash to start an endowment for 75 full football scholarships, as well as fully fund all women's athletics scholarships, and move to D-1 football. UD Arena and Welcome Stadium will both be torn down to build a new 20,000 seat basketball arena, with multiple luxury suites.
    2xHawkthechuck_2112MoHawkmpurdy22DSnyder15TAW92EDDIEelpalitoredhawk11killgas20and 2 others.
  • Iam4hawksIam4hawks Senior Barfly
    $80 million on stadium renovations which is short of what the B12 would really want and more will need to be done with basketball. I can see the B12 price tag to easily be $10-20 million or more in facility improvements. 
    2xHawk said:

    JiveHawk said:

    2xHawk said:

    The free TV advertising argument is vastly overvalued and a tired, poor defense of athletic spending.  Who's really watching these bowl games?  Almost no one.  The low level bowl games draw between 1 and 2 million viewers.  Fans of the two teams and gamblers, that's who is watching.  For what we spend on football annually you could buy advertising on half the Sunday Night Football games and hit 23 million people each night.

    "Hey people who watch sports, come to a school that doesn't have sports."



    The Sunday Night Football example is simply to show the inefficiency of this argument, feel free to insert whatever other highly rated television program connects the dots for you.  However, current students have very clearly shown that they are people who watch sports yet Miami having varsity sports is of little concern to them. 

    Dropping football entirely wouldn't even have to be on the table.  Just cut the spending back to a reasonable amount and spend the rest on advertising or anything else that is actually effective to the university mission.  Then supporters of the athletics could focus their argument on the positive things that athletics actually provides without needing to throw in financial fallacies to justify it's existence.

    The following passages from the Enquirer link above sum athletics up perfectly:

    The argument now is that joining the Big 12 will bring in enough money to close the expanding shortfall in revenue in UC athletics. But joining the Big 12 will certainly mean even more spending on coaches, buildings, players, travel and equipment. In any case, the money already invested in UC's sports programs will never be recovered. Meanwhile, spending on athletics is not slowing down.

    Sports are valuable additions to college and community life. But big-business sports have shown themselves to be losing bets for most universities, and the burden of these bad choices falls most heavily on our students. If the Big 12 invitation comes to UC, there is little likelihood that any resulting revenue will be invested in the academic mission of the university in a meaningful way. In the end, we can only hope for a break-even proposition. Almost any other spending would be a better bet: better pay for staff and faculty, which is woefully behind peer institutions; more direct investment in student support and scholarships; reducing the exploitation of adjuncts; or even a reduction in tuition to make college more affordable and accessible.

    Those kinds of investments would put our students ahead of the game. But like a loser at the tables, the university keeps doubling down, swearing that it will quit when it gets back to even.



  • BluesmanBluesman Wealthy Alum
    Hey since the B12 is now considering schools with D3 football, how about SLU!! They don't have football at all! I think a great addition to the B12 and in all respects better than UC!!!
  • bpatbpat Senior Barfly
    Bluesman said:

    Hey since the B12 is now considering schools with D3 football, how about SLU!! They don't have football at all! I think a great addition to the B12 and in all respects better than UC!!!

    They could use the Rams old stadium, right?
    NescacdadProfessor_Fateelpalito
  • DSnyder15DSnyder15 Wealthy Alum
    edited September 2016
    Looks like Boise and Memphis are out.  ...and we get to keep NIU a little longer.

    www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/17436368/big-12-narrows-list-expansion-candidates-least-12-schools
  • The city of Chicago must be devastated about NIU.

    I'm surprised Memphis got ruled out already. I thought that Fedex Memphis alum was going to pay their way through.

    I hadn't really considered Temple, but they are a VERY intriguing candidate.

  • BluesmanBluesman Wealthy Alum
    Memphis is not officially out per the article above. My guess is they are still in the mix.
  • BluesmanBluesman Wealthy Alum
    bpat said:

    Bluesman said:

    Hey since the B12 is now considering schools with D3 football, how about SLU!! They don't have football at all! I think a great addition to the B12 and in all respects better than UC!!!

    They could use the Rams old stadium, right?
    Well watching the team under Jeff Fischer, the Rams barely used it either!!!
  • elpalitoelpalito Wealthy Alum

    The city of Chicago must be devastated about NIU.

    I'm surprised Memphis got ruled out already. I thought that Fedex Memphis alum was going to pay their way through.

    I hadn't really considered Temple, but they are a VERY intriguing candidate.

    I'd approve of Temple only because the Penn State fans would freak out. 
  • ChiefPanicChiefPanic Off-Campus Slummer
    Only surprise so far is Rice being included.
  • Only surprise so far is Rice being included.

    Rice and Tulane are only still included for academic and geographic reasons.
  • Cincinnati is losing at halftime to Tennessee-Martin. Maybe the Skyhawks should get a Big 12 invite?
  • elpalitoelpalito Wealthy Alum

    Cincinnati is losing at halftime to Tennessee-Martin. Maybe the Skyhawks should get a Big 12 invite?

    Well, National Title Contender Tennessee is losing to App State...so if that holds, cancel the season and give the title to ASU!
  • KAMUOHIOKAMUOHIO Havighurstite
    elpalito said:

    Cincinnati is losing at halftime to Tennessee-Martin. Maybe the Skyhawks should get a Big 12 invite?

    Well, National Title Contender Tennessee is losing to App State...so if that holds, cancel the season and give the title to ASU!
    yeah they aren't that....
  • muohiobkmuohiobk Off-Campus Slummer
    Aren't people mentioning UCONN now as well?  Personally not seeing it, They are not much better than Miami at football at this point IMO. Barely escaping Maine last night. 

    I have also read that if they don't go there they want everyone but football back in the big east. Would be interesting to see what big east would do. Uconn adds basketball prestige that is for sure. Personally I would love it they told them to go kick rocks. 
  • MUHawk84MUHawk84 Wealthy Alum
    muohiobk said:

    Aren't people mentioning UCONN now as well?  Personally not seeing it, They are not much better than Miami at football at this point IMO. Barely escaping Maine last night. 


    I have also read that if they don't go there they want everyone but football back in the big east. Would be interesting to see what big east would do. Uconn adds basketball prestige that is for sure. Personally I would love it they told them to go kick rocks. 
    I don't understand why teams want in the B12 anyway. Texas, OU and Kansas are leaving as soon as the B10 and SEC come calling
  • RedseaRedsea Wealthy Alum
    MUHawk84 said:

    muohiobk said:

    Aren't people mentioning UCONN now as well?  Personally not seeing it, They are not much better than Miami at football at this point IMO. Barely escaping Maine last night. 


    I have also read that if they don't go there they want everyone but football back in the big east. Would be interesting to see what big east would do. Uconn adds basketball prestige that is for sure. Personally I would love it they told them to go kick rocks. 
    I don't understand why teams want in the B12 anyway. Texas, OU and Kansas are leaving as soon as the B10 and SEC come calling
    Well nobody from a power league is being considered.  But if you are in the AAC and you have a chance to be in a conference for 10 years with the schools you mentioned I think you would take it.  I bet UC is thrilled that they got to live the BCS life in the Big East for the limited time they were in it.

    Also - Kansas?   When the original Big 12 breakup was rumored and 6 of those schools were going to the PAC 10- Kansas was not one of them.  Kansas could be a big loser because their football stinks.  Nobody has a more complete basketball program than UConn and they are in the AAC.   Football drives everything with these conference expansions.  
    AORedHawk33
  • BluesmanBluesman Wealthy Alum

    UC stadium looked pretty damn empty from their highlights. Reported crowd was 28K for opening game. I realize it was a Thursday night against a FCS opponent but those numbers, even what I assume are inflated crowd numbers, aren't exactly going to make the B12 jump up and take notice. I realize of course there is much more in the equation than attendance, but that at least is some small portion of the equation.

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