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MAC’s Move

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  • DICKDICK Wealthy Alum
    Nescacdad said:

    OK. Here’s what expanding the MAC to the south and southeast would probably do to Miami’s annual schedule. There would be one trip to eastern Virginia every year and one trip to the Nashville market. We’d only see each one of our northern brethren once every four years or so. It would almost completely disrupt Miami’s 75 year long MAC football traditions. Read ‘em and weep Gung-Ho expanders!


    EXPANDED MAC

    NORTHERN Division

    Buffalo
    Akron
    Kent
    Toledo
    Central Michigan
    Western Michigan
    Eastern Michigan
    NIU

    SOUTHERN Division

    Bowling Green
    Ball State
    Miami
    Ohio
    Middle Tennessee
    Western Kentucky
    James Madison
    Old Dominion

    Sample Annual Miami Schedule

    At Buy game
    UC (Victory Bell)
    Buy Game /FCS or FBS G5 OOC
    Bowling Green
    At Western Kentucky
    Ball State (Redbird Rivalry)
    At Old Dominion
    Middle Tennessee
    At MAC North crossover
    James Madison
    At Ohio
    MAC North Crossover


    What we would be doing is replacing games vs Ball State and 2 other MAC west teams with games vs JMU and ODU
  • NescacdadNescacdad Wealthy Alum
    edited October 20
    Actually, we’d be replacing annually played games with Kent, Buffalo, Akron and one MAC crossover game with ODU, JMU, WKU and MTSU - eliminating one very long road trip to Buffalo every other year and replacing it with another every year except in years where we’d play Buffalo. In those years we would have two long conference road trips.
    DICK said:

    Nescacdad said:

    OK. Here’s what expanding the MAC to the south and southeast would probably do to Miami’s annual schedule. There would be one trip to eastern Virginia every year and one trip to the Nashville market. We’d only see each one of our northern brethren once every four years or so. It would almost completely disrupt Miami’s 75 year long MAC football traditions. Read ‘em and weep Gung-Ho expanders!


    EXPANDED MAC

    NORTHERN Division

    Buffalo
    Akron
    Kent
    Toledo
    Central Michigan
    Western Michigan
    Eastern Michigan
    NIU

    SOUTHERN Division

    Bowling Green
    Ball State
    Miami
    Ohio
    Middle Tennessee
    Western Kentucky
    James Madison
    Old Dominion

    Sample Annual Miami Schedule

    At Buy game
    UC (Victory Bell)
    Buy Game /FCS or FBS G5 OOC
    Bowling Green
    At Western Kentucky
    Ball State (Redbird Rivalry)
    At Old Dominion
    Middle Tennessee
    At MAC North crossover
    James Madison
    At Ohio
    MAC North Crossover


    What we would be doing is replacing games vs Ball State and 2 other MAC west teams with games vs JMU and ODU
  • DICKDICK Wealthy Alum
    edited October 20
    I guess I should have actually examined your proposal before I responded, lol.  You went North-South instead of the East - West setup we currently have.  So you would have us replacing games vs the current MAC West teams and Akron, Kent, and UB with games vs JMU and ODU, MTU, and WK  I still don't see why we would want to do that.  We are not a Southern school......   That also does not solve the UT-BG problem, any reshuffle should strive to put them in the same division.
  • ButlerCountyButlerCounty Summer Orientee
    Looks like Marshall and Southern Miss will bolt to the Sunbelt.

    I’d like to see the MAC add WKY and one more. The Hilltoppers have a stronger fan base than most realize, are good at both revenue sports and would expand the MAC footprint into a new market.
  • DA_HAWKDA_HAWK Summer Orientee
    Liberty has great facilities and money of P5. I think the religious aspect / it’s founder and his son soured a lot of ppl but they are dead/gone, and I’ve know several kids who have gone there and had great experiences.
    I think the MAC needs MTSU & WKU / southern component (of course I’m biased living in the south).
    My cousin went there for one semester on scholarship and said it is a racist and homophobic cult-like campus with horrible academic instruction. He left after they basically said persons of color were not equal to whites, and LGBTQ* could be corrected thru prayer or they would burn in Hell for all eternity. Additionally, no alcohol, no pre-marital sex, and No effin' way I would want them in the MAC. 
  • DICKDICK Wealthy Alum
    DA_HAWK said:

    Liberty has great facilities and money of P5. I think the religious aspect / it’s founder and his son soured a lot of ppl but they are dead/gone, and I’ve know several kids who have gone there and had great experiences.
    I think the MAC needs MTSU & WKU / southern component (of course I’m biased living in the south).
    My cousin went there for one semester on scholarship and said it is a racist and homophobic cult-like campus with horrible academic instruction. He left after they basically said persons of color were not equal to whites, and LGBTQ* could be corrected thru prayer or they would burn in Hell for all eternity. Additionally, no alcohol, no pre-marital sex, and No effin' way I would want them in the MAC. 
    And that is the issue with Liberty.  Whether you love them or hate them, who wants to deal with all that.
  • QuinoaburgerQuinoaburger Wealthy Alum
    Even if you set aside the problems with the larger university and the sportswashing issue, Liberty doesn't even make sense from an athletic perspective. They clearly have much higher aspirations. They also have mountains of money and a win-at-all-cost mentality to help them reach those higher aspirations. The most likely scenario is that they come in, buy a few championships, and then bail at the first opportunity (whether that's because of an offer from a bigger conference or because they reach the point where they can compete nationally as an independent, a la Notre Dame). Any offers should only go to schools that are committed to the conference's long-term project.
  • RenmancoRenmanco Wealthy Alum

    Even if you set aside the problems with the larger university and the sportswashing issue, Liberty doesn't even make sense from an athletic perspective. They clearly have much higher aspirations. They also have mountains of money and a win-at-all-cost mentality to help them reach those higher aspirations. The most likely scenario is that they come in, buy a few championships, and then bail at the first opportunity (whether that's because of an offer from a bigger conference or because they reach the point where they can compete nationally as an independent, a la Notre Dame). Any offers should only go to schools that are committed to the conference's long-term project.........



    .....of non-aspirational mediocrity.

    UCF left for an eventual move to a bigger footprint.
    Marshall left for the same....and stumbled.
     
    UCF has a huge market---Orlando and 40,000 students and an avid fan base and a history of "name" coaches....and MONEY.
    Marshall has Huntington W VA....fair student support and a partying fan base (not bad), a history of unmemorable coaches....and not enough money to make any meaningful noise.
  • Cincykid3Cincykid3 Wealthy Alum
    Ironic how badly C-USA experiment ended up for the Herd...after all their boasting and preening on the MAC board when they gleefully left the MAC.

    As for expansion, I get the concept built around revenue sharing and the concept that we don’t bring in another member unless it enhances each schools’ receipts, but I kinda like the idea of having WKU and MTSU in the conference if they come a-begging. Maybe we offer them half shares for the first couple years, etc.
  • profholt82profholt82 Wealthy Alum
    Marshall can eat a bag of dicks.
  • 96Skins96Skins Havighurstite
    So how would those that don’t feel expanding is the right move feel if say UT, UB, NIU & WMU leave for CUSA (NIU and UB have both flirted with them)? If we feel the MAC is in good shape, then why wouldn’t CUSA go after some of our most prized programs / markets? Just playing devils advocate - CUSA will try to survive - it might be a good idea to be proactive rather than reactive.
  • Cincykid3Cincykid3 Wealthy Alum
    Yeah that’s kinda what I was thinking..if Marshall and USM both leave for the Sunbelt (and maybe take ODU and JMU with them), C-USA will be in life support..why not pick up WKU and MTSU to put them out of their misery as a viable G5 FBS conference?
  • MooreHawkMooreHawk Senior Barfly
    96Skins said:

    So how would those that don’t feel expanding is the right move feel if say UT, UB, NIU & WMU leave for CUSA (NIU and UB have both flirted with them)? If we feel the MAC is in good shape, then why wouldn’t CUSA go after some of our most prized programs / markets? Just playing devils advocate - CUSA will try to survive - it might be a good idea to be proactive rather than reactive.

    Unlike other conferences, I don't think there is a clear cut top tier of teams in the MAC and so I don't think losing any four teams would be a death blow to the MAC. We'd be left with 8 schools with a consistent identity and geographic range, unlike the currently weakened C-USA that stretches from Marshall to UTEP to FIU. At that point we'd want to expand, but it wouldn't be a necessity to keep the conference alive. 


  • People around here sure do have short-term memories about Marshall's second stint in the MAC and how they ended up in NCAA no-no land.

    They can go wherever they damn well please and it better not be the MAC.
  • RedseaRedsea Wealthy Alum
    96Skins said:

    So how would those that don’t feel expanding is the right move feel if say UT, UB, NIU & WMU leave for CUSA (NIU and UB have both flirted with them)? If we feel the MAC is in good shape, then why wouldn’t CUSA go after some of our most prized programs / markets? Just playing devils advocate - CUSA will try to survive - it might be a good idea to be proactive rather than reactive.

    The MAC has a better tv contract and better logistics NOW. CUSA just lost six programs. Why the hell would any MAC school sign up for the mess that is CUSA. Soccer in FLorida. Tennis in El paso texas. It would make Zero sense
  • DICKDICK Wealthy Alum
    Redsea said:

    96Skins said:

    So how would those that don’t feel expanding is the right move feel if say UT, UB, NIU & WMU leave for CUSA (NIU and UB have both flirted with them)? If we feel the MAC is in good shape, then why wouldn’t CUSA go after some of our most prized programs / markets? Just playing devils advocate - CUSA will try to survive - it might be a good idea to be proactive rather than reactive.

    The MAC has a better tv contract and better logistics NOW. CUSA just lost six programs. Why the hell would any MAC school sign up for the mess that is CUSA. Soccer in FLorida. Tennis in El paso texas. It would make Zero sense
    Exactly.  CUSA is on life support and has absolutely nothing to offer to make any MAC school go there.  I guess 96 Skins can't wait to be in a conference with UTEP and FIU.
  • DavearamaDavearama Off-Campus Slummer
    QT? See lots of comments that hint that if MAC adds schools all it will do with TV is dilute the shares we get. Same size pie----smaller slices. 

    QT-would there be any chance that if we expand with WKU and MTSU that the espn contract gets renegotiated considering that these two schools bring in additional markets?

    Not sure about WKU--they're in Bowling Green, KY an hour north of Nashville and hour and half or so south of Louisville. But MTSU is in Murfreesboro and basically now a suburb of Nashville, a huge new market. Nashville is home to Vandy, an SEC team. 

    I think athletically and academically they're both a pretty good fits to the MAC. Never been to MTSU but Bowling Green is great little college town and Western is a very nice campus. Kinda like Oxford, out in the middle of the corn, beans and of course in Kentucky, tobacco. 

    We could do worse...say Marshall and Liberty for instance. 
  • 96Skins96Skins Havighurstite
    edited October 20
    It was a hypothetical question - not an argument for or against.
  • profholt82profholt82 Wealthy Alum
    The thing is that the MAC is a northern league. I realize that most of you guys live in the Cincinnati region, and there's a different feeling down there regarding the South, being that Kentucky is just over the bridge. But I don't think that schools in Nashville and Bowling Green, KY would look at playing schools in NY, Michigan, or the Chicago area as a positive option. They're different worlds. They'd more likely rather play schools in Alabama and Georgia, etc. Their fanbases would almost certainly be more comfortable with that as well. If the MAC were to expand, I'd think schools in the NE or perhaps a school like Northern Iowa would be much more likely. Most of the MAC's buy games are with B10 schools, rarely SEC schools. And you don't see the B10 going after schools in the South just as you don't see the SEC going after schools in the North. Never say never and whatnot, but I just don't see it as a good fit.
  • profholt82profholt82 Wealthy Alum
    And to add to that, it's not even necessarily the travel, it's more of a sense of identity. The difference between southern and northern football culture, so to speak. Sure, it's fun when MAC and B10 schools play southern schools from time to time, but to join a conference is something different entirely. It changes your identity. Not a north/south thing, but culture/identity-wise, take Nebraska for instance. They've never really fit in with the B10, and things haven't gone well for them, and from what I've read, there's been friction between them and league in general. And I'm sure their fanbase would have preferred regularly traveling to and playing schools from Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas to schools in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, etc. I feel like Middle Tennessee or WKU and their fanbases would feel similarly about a move to the MAC. It might be exciting for everyone at first, but eventually, it would change their identities and likely leave a bad taste in everyone's mouths.
  • BluesmanBluesman Wealthy Alum
    Per reports last night, Sun Belt is seriously pursuing: Southern Miss, Marshall, ODU, and James Madison. Sun Belt's goal is to be the top mid major conference. Adding these teams would go a long way towards that. So CUSA seems to be in severe peril. The MAC? Quiet, sleeping, apparently doing nothing. At least nothing that is being reported. Some has commented on the pros and cons of the MAC making a move. I have long advocated bringing back Marshall and adding WKU. Well Marshall seems to be going elsewhere as the MAC didn't pursue. I still think WKU makes sense as does to some degree, MTSU. Or maybe the MAC tries to raid MVC football teams-SIU, Northern Iowa, to name a couple. But unless they want to move up for FB, MVC arguably is a better BB league than the MAC. That brings us to another option, one I haven't favored, but since the Power 5 are likely soon to separate themselves from everyone else, would it make sense for the MAC to drop to FCS and join their playoff system? I personally don't like dropping from FBS to FCS, so I propose another option-that the non Power 5 teams institute a playoff system like the FCS. Maybe within the bowl system, maybe not. But at least then there is a true trophy to pursue and not a relatively meaningless bowl game. 
  • 96Skins96Skins Havighurstite
    Let’s say the SunBelt takes WKU, MTSU (those two remain to be seen - but both have reached out), Marshall, ODU & JMU this would essentially do to the MAC what the AAC did to the Mtn West in isolating them and ensuring the only way they can grow is through FCS expansion- which won’t work in the MAC footprint. I firmly believe this will push the MAC to the back of the line (for many yrs) assuming CUSA implodes.
  • Cincykid3Cincykid3 Wealthy Alum
    edited October 21
    I didn’t mean to necessarily advocate a a strategy to bring in WKU and perhaps MTSU, and there have been some excellent points raised about their southern based culture not fitting in with the MAC for their fan bases. I also agree with the comment that perhaps the Cincinnati area natives among us (including present company), view Kentucky as more of a natural expansion if we want to expand our footprint in a reasonable manner.

    One of my brothers and his wife both have jobs in Cincinnati and have lived over the bridge in Union, KY for years and both of their kids went to UK. So yeah, I guess I am guilty as feeling Kentucky could be part of MAC territory while many others here would not.

    All that said, if the Sunbelt does take Marshall and 3 others, that leaves C-USA on life support and WKU and MTSU may reach out to the MAC and perhaps ESPN would want to enable it to happen for their own modest benefit for MACtion. If the MAC agrees that would pretty much finish off C-USA as a viable FBS conference which theoretically could benefit us in TV appearances and bowl game slots.
  • MooreHawkMooreHawk Senior Barfly
    Bluesman - Dropping to FCS makes no financial sense. The CFP payout to the MAC would go down by 15 million, buy games would go down by a million, the media deal would drop. And all we'd save is some scholarships and some money on coaches. Is that worth it in exchange for being able to play for the FCS national championship? I don't think so.

    96 - The MAC doesn't want to, or need to expand so it's not an issue that we can't. As for the MAC being at the back of the line, maybe but the goal of the MAC hasn't been to be the best G5 conference. It's been to play FBS football in a conference that makes sense.
  • Cincykid3Cincykid3 Wealthy Alum
    Is there any benefit to the MAC if C-USA ceases to be a viable FBS conference?
  • NescacdadNescacdad Wealthy Alum
    edited October 21
    Yep. IMO it doesn’t appear reasonable to divide what would very obviously be - if we added those four schools - a Northwest-Southeast league East-West. Eight teams are north of BG and eight teams would be south of Kent/Akron .
    DICK said:

    I guess I should have actually examined your proposal before I responded, lol.  You went North-South instead of the East - West setup we currently have.  So you would have us replacing games vs the current MAC West teams and Akron, Kent, and UB with games vs JMU and ODU, MTU, and WK  I still don't see why we would want to do that.  We are not a Southern school......   That also does not solve the UT-BG problem, any reshuffle should strive to put them in the same division.

  • ButlerCountyButlerCounty Summer Orientee

    And to add to that, it's not even necessarily the travel, it's more of a sense of identity. The difference between southern and northern football culture, so to speak. Sure, it's fun when MAC and B10 schools play southern schools from time to time, but to join a conference is something different entirely. It changes your identity. Not a north/south thing, but culture/identity-wise, take Nebraska for instance. They've never really fit in with the B10, and things haven't gone well for them, and from what I've read, there's been friction between them and league in general. And I'm sure their fanbase would have preferred regularly traveling to and playing schools from Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas to schools in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, etc. I feel like Middle Tennessee or WKU and their fanbases would feel similarly about a move to the MAC. It might be exciting for everyone at first, but eventually, it would change their identities and likely leave a bad taste in everyone's mouths.

    Nebraska’s issues run deeper than geography and culture. They haven’t been “Nebraska” since Tom Osborne retired. They dominated running that triple option and being able to take Prop 48 players. They’d be struggling if they were still in the BXII.

    Going to the MAC would be beneficial for WKU and MTSU. They’d get more money and get on TV more than they had previously. On top of that, CUSA is getting carved up and instead of playing those teams they are used to their conference will be adding schools who will be stepping up from the FCS.
  • NescacdadNescacdad Wealthy Alum
    edited October 21
    You and I seem to agree on a lot of things, Cincy.

    Miami itself is located in the Tri-State area and we do a lot of recruiting south of the I-75 bridge (AJ Mayer). Northern KY is definitely in our footprint. Eastern Kentucky is in Ohio’s footprint. The MAC can definitely make a case for being interested in the Bluegrass State.

    As I pointed out before, both WKU And MTSU bolted from the Sun Belt to CUSA and it unlikely the Belt wants them back. It seems there is pretty much a consensus - both on this board and in Huntington - that the MAC and the Herd ought to stay divorced this time. Only one of us seems to be an advocate for bringing on Liberty. There is definitely strong opinion being expressed here against it. I would imagine that resolve only strengthens on the boards of our more northern MAC brethren.

    JMU -if it goes FBS - would certainly prefer the Belt over the MAC for both geographical and football culture reasons. ODU is rapidly enhancing its facilities and definitely would volunteer to be a Belt team if the Belt wants it.

    That leaves the two most desirable schools near our footprint without a home - arch rivals WKU and MTSU. Both are essentially in the Nashville market and share that program with the smallest school - and the worst football program - in the SEC. It is my understanding that MTSU is now the largest university in Tennessee. My bottom line is that, if they both want in and are willing to bring all sports, the MAC should try to work out a deal.
    Cincykid3 said:

    I didn’t mean to necessarily advocate a a strategy to bring in WKU and perhaps MTSU, and there have been some excellent points raised about their southern based culture not fitting in with the MAC for their fan bases. I also agree with the comment that perhaps the Cincinnati area natives among us (including present company), view Kentucky as more of a natural expansion if we want to expand our footprint in a reasonable manner.

    One of my brothers and his wife both have jobs in Cincinnati and have lived over the bridge in Union, KY for years and both of their kids went to UK. So yeah, I guess I am guilty as feeling Kentucky could be part of MAC territory while many others here would not.

    All that said, if the Sunbelt does take Marshall and 3 others, that leaves C-USA on life support and WKU and MTSU may reach out to the MAC and perhaps ESPN would want to enable it to happen for their own modest benefit for MACtion. If the MAC agrees that would pretty much finish off C-USA as a viable FBS conference which theoretically could benefit us in TV appearances and bowl game slots.

  • crashdadcrashdad Dodds God
    Introducing the MAC "Directional Division":

    Western Kentucky
    Middle Tennessee
    Eastern Michigan
    Central Michigan
    Western Michigan
    Northern Illinois
  • skinsskins Wealthy Alum
    I mean Miami is just getting to the point that we can expect to be at the top of the East, do you really want to change that?


    Adding these teams only makes Miami's life harder....
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